Heart to Heart with Hads

Grace Brown: What If Success Is Beyond What You Do?

• Hadlea Shaw

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0:00 | 56:09

We sit down with Grace Brown, a licensed therapist turned coach, and get honest about what actually drives client change: trust, emotional safety, and the stories we attach to success. We unpack why high achievers struggle with vulnerability, how coaches can stop over-owning client outcomes, and what it looks like to be “more than your achievements” in real life. 

• Grace’s background, farm life, and bringing personality back into “professional” spaces 
• Moving from therapy and fitness coaching into broader life coaching 
• Why mindset and the coaching relationship matter more than perfect plans 
• Using “fire vs water” to match motivation and communication styles 
• Reparenting skills clients never learned and helping build self-trust 
• Fear of rejection, ghosting, and the over-responsibility trap for helpers 
• Working with shame without piling on criticism 
• Guarded clients, surface-level answers, and building depth with curiosity 
• Achievement-based worth, fear of failure, and learning to be loved beyond results 


You guys can find her on Instagram or TikTok. @gkbrown


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Welcome And Meet Grace

SPEAKER_00

Hello guys and welcome back to the podcast. I am super excited to be on here today, and I have a special guest. Her name is Grace. So Grace, why don't you tell us before you tell us what you do? Because I feel like so many people just go straight into like, oh, what do you do? Like, who are you as a person and what are some things that you like, are interested in, and dive deep on those first before you kind of tell us what you do.

SPEAKER_01

Perfect. I can do that. So yeah, everyone, my name is Grace. Um, I would describe myself, I love animals, I love being outside. I grew up on a farm, and so I think that has a lot to do with the person I am today, the things that I'm interested in, being outside, being in nature, being around animals. I am mushy to the core. I definitely have a big heart, and I am really invested in service and I love people. I love working with people. I always have like since I was really young. So people are also a big part of my life and how I orient, how I see myself. Um, I'm also really silly and goofy. I think we're both in a field that I I don't know for you, but like for me, I felt I think pressure throughout my career to be very professional. And I felt like there was a point where I kind of lost my silly goofy side and felt like that couldn't be a big part of who I was professionally, and slowly but surely I've allowed that to come back out and be silly goofy because that is a huge part of who I am. Some people would say I'm dramatic and out there and can be a little cuckoo, but I think it's just like my silly goofy side. I have like this youthful, playful, childlike energy that all we all have within us. So some of us kind of get lost along the way. So yeah, that's how a little bit of how I describe myself.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like I also sometimes I go through like extremes where I am like, oh, be more professional, and then I'm just like, oh, be more goofy, and I just need to kind of like find the the balance between the two because a lot of the times I think you need to show up and be like this authority figure,

Growing Up On A Farm

SPEAKER_00

and it's like at the end of the day, people just want to be able to relate to you as well. So I get that.

SPEAKER_01

I totally agree.

SPEAKER_00

Being but also, yes, what is your favorite animal?

unknown

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so I was a horse girl. Why can I see that actually? I was a horse girl, so I grew up on a farm with horses and cows, and um loved the horses. I rode growing up, and my dad also bred thoroughbreds, which is like a racehorse, and he would have me help him break them in, though. So I was like getting on these horses before they like really could be actually ridden, and you know, that was a little that's scary. Yeah, it was a little like one time I got thrown into a fence and I was like, I don't think I want to do this again. I think dad, you need to have somebody else do this. I don't want to be like the test bunny for this, but yeah, I love horses, I love dogs, I love dolphins. I love so yeah, I love so many animals. What's your favorite animal?

SPEAKER_00

Domestic, obviously dogs, but like like not? I don't know, that's a good question. I don't I think monkeys are so interesting just because they act so similarly to humans. I think monkeys are really interesting too.

SPEAKER_01

What was the little baby monkey that had the little stuffed animal that everyone was freaking out about? Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00

I remember seeing a video I was thinking about that too. I don't remember. It's okay.

Atlanta Roots And Travel Plans

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so where do you live? And like, do you live where you grew up or no?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I live in Atlanta, Georgia. So I grew up like 45 minutes outside of the city of Atlanta. Okay, but I did grow up in Georgia, and yeah, I've been here. I went to college in North Carolina, but I've been in Georgia pretty much my entire life, which we're fixing to change.

SPEAKER_00

Really? You're moving?

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna start traveling and like be kind of an I don't really like the word nomad because I don't feel like I'm gonna be a nomad, but I'm gonna be like Airbnb places and just be bopping around. That's fun. So like you're gonna like still have your place where you live and just so my mom has a condo in Atlanta, so I've moved in here so that I don't have to sign a lease. And essentially I'm just gonna leave my stuff here and travel around. That's super smart. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You don't have to like pay for a lease or anything.

SPEAKER_01

Because I was like, I don't if I'm gonna be like two, if I'm gonna spend like two and a half to three weeks a month in another place, I'm not paying for a lease. No, it's like such a waste. Such a waste. So yeah, I'm gonna leave my stuff here and then just travel a little bit. I've never done that in my life, so I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, where is the first place you're gonna go?

SPEAKER_01

Austin for next retreat. Yeah, yes, I'm going. I'm so excited. Yeah, I'm gonna so I'm gonna be there for like I think 12 days total. Um, so that's my first spot, and then I have to figure out the rest of it. I'm not really I'm not type A about most things. So, like planning, I'm like, oh, I'll just see the where the wind takes me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You just start talking to other people, and yeah, oh, that's not fun.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna go there. I mean, I know there's certain places I want to go, but I haven't like set in stone exactly when. I'm just like, oh, I'm just gonna see where the wind takes me and we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00

That's cool. That's fun. So the first place is Austin. When do you leave for that?

SPEAKER_01

I'm coming in Wednesday, so I guess the 10th, so the day before the retreat starts, and then I'll be there for like the whole next week and then a little bit into the next weekend.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, fine. Yeah, I'm going the 10th too, but I'm leaving that Sunday. So I'm not gonna be there very long.

SPEAKER_02

Sad.

SPEAKER_00

I could extend it, the trip. You could. Where are you? Where do you

Wichita Life And The Air Capital

SPEAKER_00

live? I live in Kansas, Wichita, Kansas. Wichita, Kansas. I don't know anything about Wichita.

SPEAKER_01

It's what's Wichita like?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, it's one of the like the second biggest city in Kansas, aside from Kansas City. Okay so it's not like it's rural or anything. Um yeah, I I lived or I grew up an hour south of here, like on the Oklahoma-Kansas border. Okay. So Southern.

SPEAKER_01

Southern. It's so interesting because being from Georgia, I think this is the south. But then I think about it too. But then people thought But is there like a different are you guys a different type of southern than us? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Like what type of what's this like we're like, you know, we're Georgia Peaches and people like to drive trucks, and I don't know because Kansas could technically be considered Midwest, but I don't feel like Midwest because I'm not like in Illinois, yeah, Nebraska.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like you have a little southern twang too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I do. Yeah, I think it's just because like I'm almost literally from Oklahoma because it's we're like five miles from the state line.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, okay. So what do people do in Wichita?

SPEAKER_00

Um, work. Wichita is like a bit, obviously work. Everyone works, but like Wichita is huge in aviation, so it's like considered like the air capital of the world. So most of the majority of the airplanes are built in Wichita. Oh, interesting. So there's a bunch of I don't know if you've heard of like Textron, aviation, it's like a big corporate company. Okay. Textron, Beechcraft, what are the other? There's just like a bunch of big spirit aerosystems, like my fiance's brother and dad, and like all of his friends work there at the airport. Yeah, so my fiance doesn't work there, but a lot of a lot of people do, like, employs a lot of people. So that there's other than that, really not much because there's no like other things, yeah. I mean, we have like good, I would say good restaurants and whatnot, but nothing to like go and do. You know, like Austin, I feel like there's so much to do, so much stuff to do, yeah. And it's such like an active place. Totally. I live, it's just it's not that way because there's not like a big like city life. Like, yeah, there's a downtown, but it's not like a city city, huge like city city, like it's not like Atlanta or Dallas or no, yeah, that's very small compared to that. So we live kind of like we don't even live anywhere close really to the city, so we like live out in the neighborhood. I mean, we do have neighbors, but it's just like not a city feel, okay. But where I actually am from, like we lived in the country.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's cool. I've never met anyone from Wichita. So you've been first.

SPEAKER_00

That's cool. I know, not a lot of people have, so but it's nice, it's quiet, and like I'm close to my mom lives here, and then my sister lives in Arkansas. Okay, so that's really and a lot of my family still lives in my hometown, which I will never live there, but that's aside from the point. So, yeah, okay, so tell me, explain now, like exactly what you do, who you help, yeah, how you got into it, all of it, because I'm really intrigued.

From Licensed Therapist To Coach

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so my primary occupation, which will it won't be for long, I'm a licensed therapist. Okay, and I've been doing that, I've been licensed for two and a half years now. I graduated from grad school with my master's in 2023. Um, and so I've been practicing as a therapist since then. While I was in grad school, I started working as a fitness coach for someone else. Um, and so that's how I got my foot into the coaching industry was I was an assistant coach for someone else's coaching business. And I did that for three years, actually. So I did that pretty much until actually maybe it was like three and a half years, because I didn't stop doing that till April of last year. So April of 2025, I quit working for her business so that I could start my own business. And so I launched originally it was just fitness coaching. I launched that in August. I pretty quickly realized I was like, oh, my therapeutic background makes me kind of want to work with people on an array of array of things. So I say more of like a life coaching. I work with people like career stuff, relationship stuff. I still do a little bit of health stuff, but it's more like health, like life balance. Um of it is personal development, like people who maybe have struggled with like anxiety or have kind of lost connection with lost connection with themselves, have a lower sense of like self-worth or self-esteem. But I would say a lot of it is like career, relationship, um, business. They're like trying to grow in their business or grow financially. Those I would say like are the biggest things, and then some just like general life stuff. So quickly made a transition because my therapy, I don't know. I I think my therapeutic background helps me with that, but I also have seen just such an array of diversity of issues there, and I was like, I can help people with more than just health, and I like that. It's it's like stimulating for my brain and fun to switch it up, so yeah, it's a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_00

I love that, yeah. I have wanted to like get into life coaching just because, too, like there's a point where, like, yeah, you can help people with their fitness, but a lot of it really does come down to mindset. You're like changing people's entire perspectives, and it's I feel like it's that's the part that I'm lacking is like being able to get into their head and be like, and then not be just like, oh, do this, like follow this plan.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I feel like it's very rare with fitness coaching that it's just fitness coaching, like it's like the top like 1% of people you work with is they already have a good foundation, they already know what they're doing, they know macros, they know fitness and health, and they're just trying to like stay in shape or elevate a little bit. But majority of, I mean, same for me, like the majority of the people I worked with when I was an assistant coach, they needed, I was like, I'm doing way more than fitness coaching here. Um, this is not just fitness coaching. And yeah, um, and I think that's the other thing of like, you know, I've just this is this is a little bit of a tangent, but when people come in to the fitness coaching space or are looking for a coach, it's like you're paying for more than a fitness coach, and you need to know that because this is an investment because you're not just paying for a fitness coach.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, and I've learned that over because Friday will be my two-year like coaching anniversary where I've started my business. Yeah, and just like the the growth that I've had with like within myself as a coach has been insane because it used to just be like, here's your plan, follow this, you check in in a week, and now it's like I know about these people's relationships and every single thing about them, and like learning what makes them tick, what motivates them, and it's so much more. So much more.

SPEAKER_01

Something something that we talk a lot about in the therapy space, which I think is the same for coaching, is like the therapeutic relationship is like the most integral part of a client's success. Like you building a relationship with that person and building trust with them and building um like a leadership with them, them so that they like really will come to you and open up to you is like the foundation of their success. And I think it's the same with coaching, is like you have to be able to build solid relationships with people in order to be a successful coach. Like, there's so much more to this than just like having education on fitness and having education on nutrition. It's like, no, you have to be able to connect with people, develop relationships with them so that you are, yeah, like that bridge between how they end up being successful within this. And if you're not good at that, I just don't think you can be a successful coach.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I feel like I feel like I'm getting better at it, but I do feel like that is like a bottleneck for me still, because I I don't expect everyone to be like me, but I just know that I'm

Why Coaching Is Mostly Relationship

SPEAKER_00

a person. If you give me something to do, I'm just gonna execute on it. And I've come to realize like not everybody is like that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And having to teach them and like get them to unlearn all of these things is probably one of the if not the hardest thing about it is working.

SPEAKER_01

It is hard. I was actually thinking about this today because I in in my therapy practice I have worked with kids, and so much of how kids learn to operate is from their environment and how parents teach them and also them observing their parents. And I think when we get clients who either, you know, nutrition, health wasn't a big part of their family's lifestyle, they didn't observe their parents doing that, it was not really conversations that they were had. There is a reparenting that happens. There is like a re-or like an orientation that happens as an adult of like you weren't given these tools as a kid, or these weren't common conversations that you had as a kid, or these traits or characteristics weren't instilled as you in you as a kid because of your environment, parents, whatever reason. But we can now inst we can instill them now, right? We can kind of reorient, but it is like you are essentially like reparenting people and teaching people how to take care of themselves, which to me, I'm like, this is them parenting themselves because that was not something they learned or observed, or for whatever reason, they don't have those traits. So it's like, yeah, there's so much more that goes into being a coach, especially when you get clients, and again, I think for some of them, it's like it's not their fault that their parents unfortunately didn't instill those things in them, but it is a lot of time and effort and work that then goes into reorienting that person so that they you know learn how to show up for themselves differently, essentially.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. And I get you probably do too, but just like a wide variety of clients, such a wide variety, yeah, and each person is so incredibly different, like, and just being able to understand like how to coach them, like okay, do they need a little bit more of a kick in the ass, or do they need like more soft and like tender? And just having to like adjust my style to each person is what I have found is difficult because for one person, I can be like literally get your ass up and go do it right now, or you don't get to go do XYZ, and the other person's like, Okay, how can we pivot like being more nice? And it's just I think I need something that is, and I don't know if you do this, but kind of like a like a motivational interviewing type of thing to learn like what things make them tick, what things make them shut down. Yeah, I feel like that would really help me in building that relationship and being able to coach them better.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I ask people when they give in and come in and actually have an onboarding survey that kind of covers this for people of like one, whether they've worked with people in the past or just like them knowing, because again, they do when they're coming in, they know themselves the best. And it's like if you're honest with yourself, in the past when you've fallen off, what works and what doesn't work for you, and where do you generally get stuck? And how are you then motivated in those moments? And do you need I ask do people need more fire or water? Um, water is like the more softer or the more compassionate, and fire is like, get your ass off and let's go. And most I think I mean, my clients are like, Yeah, I need water, or I'll cry, or they're like, No, I need fire, like you can yell at me, you can tell me I need to get up and get moving.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and so I usually ask people that in the beginning, and that has worked relatively well for me. I also think that you know, there's times I call it like people's like rebellious teenager that comes out, like when people have like this little inner tantrum or teenager that's just like, I don't want to do any of this. And I'm like, okay, this is like you're you're throwing a fit right now, and I can see that clearly. Um, I'm gonna walk you through this, but then you're gonna get up and do the thing. So there's also like little moments like that with people, and they're I think when you work with people and you call it out more, they become more aware of that to where it's like easier to be kind of the tougher person in that moment of like if you're throwing it, you're throwing this is just a tantrum. And like, I'm gonna let you throw it, but then I'm gonna tell you to get up and go do whatever you need to do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I like that for sure. Cause I think a lot of the time, like when somebody is like coming to me and they're like crashing out essentially, I'm just like trying to kind of tiptoe around them because I'm like, I don't even know how to navigate this. And

Reparenting, Tantrums, And Motivation Styles

SPEAKER_00

yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What's I'm curious, what's your like what is your worry or fear or concern or like hesitation in that moment when people come to you with a crash out or with a, you know, I'm sure it's like five-minute voice memos or whatever.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's just the fact that like I'm going to come back to them with like a question to like redirect them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then they're just gonna like completely shut down or ghost me because I've had it happen. I've had clients where like literally she was in the middle of like crashing out, and like I just simple, I don't remember what I said, but then I didn't hear back from her for like four months, four months, yeah. Did I say something wrong? And maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Maybe it was just that she was triggered and was fed up. Totally. But yeah, I think I'm just scared of like the the rejection or of the like ghosting.

SPEAKER_01

What happens for you? And what happens for you like if a client doesn't respond, or like is there oh, I messed up, or oh, I did something wrong, or like is there a there's more of like, oh, did I do something wrong?

SPEAKER_00

And oh, like I could feel this coming type of thing, just based off of their actions.

SPEAKER_01

That makes sense. I think that you know, that's and that's a hard place to be. And I think as coaches, something that I think about a lot is we're in an industry that's obviously a service industry. And working with people, I think there can sometimes be this over-responsibility that we take on for our clients. I don't know if you um I definitely feel that way. Yeah, it has, and I'm still wouldn't say I fully work through this pattern, but there's something that I have to repeatedly remind myself is that I am not 100% responsible for my clients. I am not their babysitter, I am not mirroring them 24 7, I am not with them even in person. And also that they are adults. I am here to guide them, I am here to facilitate them, I am here to support them, but I, it's almost like you know, thinking about I'm not God. I don't have like I Like, let me take myself off a high horse for a second and like really think about how much I'm actually responsible for my client and their overall well-being. Like, yes, obviously, I want to positively impact them. Yes, I want to serve them. Yes, I want to be the best coach possible, but it's almost like you do have to take yourself off of the high horse. This is what helps me of like, wait, I'm not 100% responsible for them. Like I, at the end of the day, they are an adult, they are a human being, and I can do my best to build a relationship with them where they feel comfortable coming to me. And we can work through tough moments like that. And they're still gonna be triggered. There's still gonna be stuff that happens that they might put onto me or where they might fall off track, and for lack of their own awareness, they might blame you for that or ghost you or you know point the figure finger at you. And I think in those moments it's really understanding, okay, am I like there's actually nothing wrong with you triggering somebody else?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and sometimes I I'm like, wow, I I probably triggered the F out of them just now. Whoops, and I'm like, but also like Kelly has triggered the shiz out of me, so has Nick, but I don't just not respond or like give up because but I'm also a person that can handle that, like I can handle criticism, I can handle somebody yelling at me like just because I've had that growing up. Like it was never just like, oh, like you're okay, sweetie. Like, no, it was like no, get up and do better. Yeah, yeah. And I think I don't know if it that's like a something that is learned through experience.

SPEAKER_01

Some of it definitely is, some of it is definitely like what you've been around in your environment. I think you know, sometimes to people like I find people who have hold a lot of shame and are highly critical of themselves really falter under criticism or and I do think that's those are people who need a lot of compassion because when you meet shame with shame, it usually you're stuck. Like that person is not moving. And so I've been thinking about I had a client who um, you know, there was a lot of things that she was not executing on, and you know, I remember she came to me on one call and she was just like, I just wanted to tell you how appreciative I am that you haven't given up on me and that you continue to encourage me. And she was she was like really emotional. Um, and she was like, I have so much shame and criticism towards the things that I don't get done, toward the ways in which I struggle. Um, but it's because I met her in those moments with a lot of love because I knew coming in she was highly critical of herself, and the people who are like beating themselves up, sitting in a puddle of shame, like if you meet that with more shame, you put push them deeper into the hole. And so I do think there is a there's an art to coaching that is like you said, like people are different and like knowing your clients and knowing what to meet them, but also going back to what I was saying earlier of like we aren't always gonna get it right. We are, and also like it's okay if we trigger people sometimes because that opens up space for not one just conversation, but also like healing. Like if someone comes to me and they're like, hey Grace, I tell my clients this all the time. And like if you come to me and you say, Hey, that didn't sit well with me, I'm like, okay, let's talk about it. Like, I want to know what happened for you because there's probably a learning moment here for you, for us. And that then strengthens the relationship because when you can come to somebody and say, ouch, like I just want to process this a little bit with you because something was activated in me. I'm like, beautiful. I would love to have a conversation with you about it. What doesn't help the relationship is when you don't you just like ghost somebody or you withdraw or you don't have a conversation or you're not honest about what was going on for you. But yeah, there is an art sometimes to that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Shame, Criticism, And Compassion

SPEAKER_00

And I I often too feel like sometimes my clients don't go like as deep as I want them to. Like I'm expecting them to like open up to me and like get deeper so they can really truly understand what's going on, and they don't. And so then I'm almost like, okay, I genuinely don't know how to help because you're not telling me anything. Do you ask them?

SPEAKER_01

Or is it ever like okay, and what is their their response usually?

SPEAKER_00

If I ask them something, they're just like, oh, like I'm stressed. I'm like, okay, what's not everybody, but some people are I'm like, okay, what's causing this stress right now?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then they go into it, but then like it's so surface level, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Sometimes, um, one, I think there are people who are more protect protective of themselves than others, and like they definitely have more guard up, more walls and blocks. And I try to understand, at least in my work, it's like, what how does that serve them? What are you afraid of if we get deeper? What are you protecting? Or also, like, is it are you having conversations with other people in your life where you get deeper than this? Because there's a lot of people who will say no, yeah. And so that's just also not a normal part of their experience to get deeper.

SPEAKER_00

I really think that is a lot of it. It's like their whole like being in life is pretty surface level when it comes to everything, their conversations they're having, their relationships, their all of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And how they I would say too, I think some people aren't even aware that it's deeper. They they can pinpoint, like, oh, work was stressful today, or my relationship is stressful, but I don't think they can really fully, and I part of I think our our work as coaches is having people build awareness around patterns, but yeah, um, specifically with stuff like that, I think some people aren't even aware of what the deeper root is. No, like how are you really operating? And some people sadly spend their life blind to that, so they spend their life kind of operating in in one way and not really seeing beneath the surface, and then not being able to like get support for it. And again, as coaches, it's like you can only hold up a mirror so much for people, and if they're not willing to look at it, there's really not. I mean, at that point, it's like I can't hold your face to this mirror and like force you to look at it.

SPEAKER_00

But then it I feel like it kind of comes back on me of like, okay, I'm not attracting clientele that is like that, and so then I'm like, okay, is it how I speak? Is it what I'm saying or how I'm showing up very surface level? And I do think that could be part of it.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think you show up as surface level.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think I'm curious. Like, would you say you are a like more guarded person? Yeah, I'm catching that.

SPEAKER_00

I would say so.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So that might be it that you are attracting people who are more guarded around vulnerabilities or more protective of themselves. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. Like, people have ways of functioning, ways of being, ways of surviving relationships, family experiences, whatever it is they go through. And there's a reason people have walls up, like people don't just build walls for no reason, you know. Um, but that could be a part of it, is like you are attracting people who are equally as guarded, and it's like I think it's one understanding what is it that makes me feel safe and trusting with people, like what is it that allows me to bring my my walls down? Cause that you know, people are so different, but also in that way they're similar, yeah. Like of thinking of like what helps me feel less guarded, feel more trusting of other people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a good question.

Getting Clients Past Surface Answers

SPEAKER_00

I would have to say with it, but I I think it is just like genuinely somebody just asking, like, how am I doing? Like, really, and not just like, oh, I assume she's doing okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then when people ask you, because in some ways I'm similar, but when people ask you, like, how are you doing, are you honest at first? No, okay, me neither.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, I'm fine, and it's like I really could not be, yeah, but then it's like, how are you really? And then like I started crying, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But this is with someone who you have some trust with, I assume. Yes, yeah, because if with someone you don't fully have trust with, then it doesn't get past you're like, yeah, I'm fine, right? Yeah, but maybe knowing that and like thinking about like what is it within my past relationships that really allowed me to get to the point where I answer the second one honestly. And other thing about this, I think, is when people have protection up, it's like we're not I'm I get curious about it. I don't like judge it, I'm just more so like, hey, like I've been noticing this, and I want you to know that like I will continue to check up on you as you need me to, and I'm not gonna rush you like taking down your boundaries or taking down your walls, but I am curious about it. I am curious around like your hesitancy there, or if there's anything that you know, I as your coach should know about you or what it's like for you to be vulnerable or fears you have around being vulnerable. And I think when you're curious with the reasons why people are protective of themselves, it makes them more trusting of you because you're not like take it down, let me, you know, let me see your vulnerable. You're like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. I get why. Um, it's almost like I have this is related, but I in therapy I've worked with teenagers and I've worked with teenagers who it was not their idea to come into therapy. It's like their parents' idea. And the last thing as a therapist that you do with a teenager who's it's not their idea is to be like, okay, now tell me everything about you, because they're gonna be like, shut the heck up. I don't want to talk to you. Yeah, because it wasn't their idea and they're not trusting of you at first. And so I come at come into it kind of be like, Yeah, I know you don't want to be here right now. Like, I get it. I wouldn't want to be here either if my parents forced me to. You're you're playing their side because honestly, it makes sense why people have protection up, and you know, same with teenagers. I'm like, yeah, if my parents force me to go somewhere to talk to some lady who I had no idea who she was, right? I'd be like, Yeah, I don't want to talk to her, you know. Yeah, and so it's like the same with clients of like kind of understanding their protection, understanding their walls, and then slowly but surely I feel like people start to develop more trust. Um, but also reminding yourself too again, like we're not God, we can't force people to not everyone is gonna let them down.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah, that makes sense. I think that you were going back to like letting your walls down and whatnot. I think that with everybody, like anybody I'm close to, they ask me once and I'm like, I'm fine, but then they asked me again, and that like my mom, my fiance, anybody. There's not like one person that I feel safe with just like ripping it off right off the bat.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think keeps you from like the with the first one?

SPEAKER_00

What do you think keeps you from like I just feel like I don't want to be seen like weak or vulnerable? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01

What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of if someone saw you as weak or vulnerable?

SPEAKER_00

I think I'm afraid that they would just downplay the emotion that I'm feeling, which they never do.

SPEAKER_01

Did that ever happen in your life?

SPEAKER_00

I would say maybe a little bit, not with my mom. My mom always was like, no, tell me. Like she has a degree in psychology, so she she's very much like aware and understanding. But like maybe with my dad, yeah. Just because he is more like masculine father figure, I don't really know how to talk to you in a way that's not like stern and kind of hardcore. So I would say like that, but other than that, no.

SPEAKER_01

Are you um because just as you're saying this, I I again similar experience and something that I've worked

Guardedness, Trust, And Being Seen

SPEAKER_01

through. I when I was a kid, I was super sensitive. And I still am sensitive, but I think I my my sensitivity is is healthier now. I do think as a kid there were things like I was I would easily get upset over. And again, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it was pointed out to me a lot. Like you are really sensitive, and my siblings would say stuff to me about it, like you're so sensitive, you're traumatic, blah blah blah. And so I think that's something that for me has translated over, and I've had to be, I do think comes up for me around I don't want to come across as super emotional or too sensitive, or like I can't take care of myself, or um, like I don't have things sorted, but I also do take on a caretaker role. Yeah. And because of that, I care for other people, and it's harder for me to let people care for me. Um again, I think part of that is like I it's I again working through this, but like a lot of my worth and value and how I saw myself came from how what I could do for other people. So, like if I can help you, if I can fix you, if I can be there for you, if I can support you, then I like myself more. And that's really how I saw a lot of my worth and value. Again, we're working through that.

SPEAKER_00

We're working through that one. So that's a work in progress.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but for me, like when people ask me that question, that's also a big part of it for me because I'm like, well, I don't need you to care for me. But I do, I actually do need people to care for me, I do need people to be able to be there for me. But it's been like a learning curve of like, how can I actually be honest with people and not view that like there's a lot of like even now as I'm talking about it, like I can feel the tightness in my chest of like it's hard, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I feel that. I feel like I I'm kind of similar in like I derive my worth from like achieving or succeeding, and it has always been like that ever since I've been a kid, of like just hyper competitive. I don't know where it started exactly, probably in school. I just wanted to be the best. Okay, I want to I want to win the spelling contest, like I want to win all these things, and it has literally never stopped since then. And I did competitive cheer growing up, and it was like if I if we weren't winning, like I was like, I there's nothing cool about me if I'm not winning nationals every year or whatever it is. Like that was my whole identity, was based off like how good and how much how good I was and how much that I achieved. So I think a lot of it comes down to like I don't want to be seen as a failure. That makes sense for letting my like letting my gour down.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What I'm curious I'm curious about that. Like to you when you think about that, of like how do you think people would perceive you in like an emotional moment? Like how to you, like as you're thinking about you're like, oh, they would see they would see me, yeah, as being a failure if I'm emotional over something or if I'm you know weak or vulnerable that I'm failing. Yeah, yeah. Which is weird. Well, you know, it's interesting. I don't know much about cheer, but I I from what I know, I assume in the cheer world, like you have to be kind of hardcore. Yeah, right? Yeah, like you can't really have a moment of going down, or you're it's like that's a no-no, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, like if you if some part of the routine that you're in messes up, like the blame's on you, and I would be the first person to be mad at the person that stump fell or that they're tumbling, like I'd be the first one like on their ass, really, because like I was that type of person that was just like I wanted to win so bad that at any cost you would flat out piss me off if you messed up because like what do you mean at the biggest competition ever you're gonna make some dumb mistake?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Can I ask what like now in your life when you think about this or like the vulnerability piece, is there anything that you think you like miss out on, or um yeah, is there anything that you think you miss out on or lose as a result of like the protection there or the walls that come up there or this idea that you're a failure if um you're emotional?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, now that you say that, like ask that no. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So there's some yeah, there is some part of you that is like, I why would I shift this if this is if I feel like this is uh better for me or of benefit to me, right? Yeah. The thing that usually comes up here when I'm working with people is um I think you're then alone in a lot of like you can be alone in a lot of and this might be different for you. I it sounds like you have like supportive family, but sometimes people can tend to be really alone and isolated in their experiences because they're actually not really letting people in to the depth of it. And that piece, it's almost like, well, I'm supposed to be dealing with these on my own, but it's isolating sometimes, and it doesn't always feel good, and it can feel definitely feel isolated, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Even though I do have people that care about me, I just I don't like again, I don't like letting them in because I don't want them to think that I am failing. Yeah, yeah, or that so it's like backwards, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So it's like qu so the other part of this though is Hadley is people don't love you because you're successful or because you can achieve people love you because you're you, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I can't grasp that. I can only grasp that people like are attracted to me and not like a physical way, but like attracted to me because of the things that I've achieved. And I think it's because I would get praise and praised for my achievements all of the time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, that makes sense. So then again, kids are so innocent, and when I think about stuff like this, I'm like, of course, as a kid, we would think that. Of course, as a kid, we start to develop this belief about ourselves that who I am is what I do,

You Are More Than Achievements

SPEAKER_01

and I have to be successful at the things I do because that is what makes me who I am, right? And our brain, we're so innocent, like we have no real concept of like that we are so much more than that, especially when that's what people talk to you about. Like, again, for me, I was the emotionally intelligent kid, I was the sensitive kid, and so a big part of my identity was that. And then it may be like, oh, I must be dumb because I'm just emotionally intelligent. Like, I must be stupid. So I have to be really good at helping people, I have to be really good at serving people, I have to be really good at fixing people because apparently I'm not good at anything else, and this is where my value is, this is where my worth is. So similar to you in some ways, but kind of like less uh achieving and more of like how I can be there for people. And I was praised for that. I was like, You're the nice kid, you're the kid who like is mean to the bullies, like you're the kid who sits with the kid who has no one to sit with at lunch, and so so much of how I saw myself was in that. And um, it wasn't until like the past two years, honestly, that I started to realize that I had someone I I who like supervises me. She like looked at me and she's like, Grace, you are lovable without being having to fix people, like you are worthy of love, you are lovable without having to fix people, and so then it's like for you, it's like you are lovable without achieving, without being successful, like that is just a small piece of you, but it's not like that's not who you are, like entirely at your core, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I feel like it feels hard because I mean that's what you've been used to your whole life, and so it's like okay, well, then what is it that people love me for? If it's not me achieving, then what is it?

SPEAKER_01

And then it's hard for you to see that there are other things about you that people love and care about than just that, yes, for sure. Is that hard? I feel like it's hard, yeah. That's hard. I mean, as I'm saying it now, I'm like that kind of that's sad to me. Yeah, it is sad, and not in not in a bad way. I'm like that, that it's it's again just like you know, this is one of those things of like this is part of the like work I do with people, but like so so you know, and like as we're having this conversation, like such a human conversation, it's like I can feel an emotional experience for you without pitying you, without being like, oh, like boo hoo hadly. It's more so just like, yeah, that. Of course, that would be sad that this human being in front of me who, you know, this is the first time we're having an in-depth conversation. I don't know you that well, but like I can care for you and still be like, oh, I hope you get to the point one day where you recognize that who you are as a human being is so much more beyond than just what you do and how you succeed in your achievements, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and it's like I can feel the I feel the emotional experience of that because I know in a similar way what it's like too, right? To think that all of who I am is just my ability to fix people and that yeah, that's what I came here to do, and that's all I'm good for, and people only love me and care about me when I'm I'm help of useful to them, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, for sure. I see from your perspective too, like how you would feel in the same kind of scenario.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I didn't mean for you to like kind of just talk to me for free on the call, but no, I these are the conversations I love.

Sharing The Human Stuff Publicly

SPEAKER_01

I think that you know, this is um again, like I'm a naturally curious person, and it's always it's so interesting to me to be able to connect with people, and also I appreciate you just like you know, sharing all that stuff with me too. Yeah, um, but yeah, I think there's so many people who would relate to both what you said and to what I said. Like, there's so many, there's so many people who you know hear that, hear what you said, and are like, oh my god, yeah, that's me. Um and I I speak about this a little bit on my Instagram too, of just like, you know, when when we place who we are, our worth and our value and our success and our achievements, we usually end up in on this like never-ending hamster wheel of feeling like that's what I feel like I'm on. And the good news is you can get off of it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but it's like just being able to do the work and see, and I think you're in such a good container for this, but you know, being able to see yourself um for who you are inherently at your core, that who Hadley is is so much more than just what she does and how successful she is in that.

SPEAKER_00

I think too, it's because we're like in it every day. Like, for example, you like you said your worth is in like helping others, is because you're doing it every day. And like it's majority of what you do, and like same with me of just like achieving like getting client results, getting more clients, growing my business, like showing up and doing all these things every day, like marking off my checklist, like, oh, I had a great day, I achieved everything on my list. And I just think that that in itself doesn't really help, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01

As you're saying all this right now, I'm just like, this is probably what your people want to hear. I hope. Yeah, your client. Like, I don't know if I've heard you specifically speak on this, like on your Instagram or socials, but I think that is a way for you to like go deeper of like that makes so much sense. And I think that opens a door for people to be like, oh my gosh, you know, again, at the end of the day, we're all human. Yeah, regardless of the success we have, regardless of the things that we accomplish, we are all human, and there is like commonality in the human experience of what that those moments are like and how it gets kind of tough. And again, I feel the same way as you like it is hard for me sometimes to like get on social media and be like, is this really helpful for for me to share? Or yeah, I don't know if I feel comfortable even sharing this, but I think you know, even having conversations like this, I'm reminded of like, oh yeah, it is helpful because even as you're sharing it with me now, I'm like, I didn't know that about you. And to me, I'm like, that is makes you human and is an ability to then be able to connect with you on a deeper level, and that serves others, but it also serves the relationships that you're in with people, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure.

How Grace Practices Boundaries And Honesty

SPEAKER_00

Okay, my question for you is how are you, because you said you're working through it, how are you currently working through it? Like, what are the things that you're having to do or like mental reframes that you are doing?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so a lot of it comes up in my work. And I would say, like, kind of what I was talking about in the beginning around clients, like when I maybe struggling with a client, or I feel like a client isn't successful as successful as I think they should be, or maybe I feel like I did something that I shouldn't have done. It's really those moments that I'm meeting the part of myself that tends to go into over-responsibility to think like, oh, I can save them at the end of the day. Like, I'm 100% responsible. Like, I meet myself in those moments. I'm like, okay, you are feeling like a desperation or urgency to fix this immediately because you place your worth and your ability to help people. And so, like, my anxiety that I feel in those moments isn't really about the thing, it's about how I see myself in in this moment. So, like, I'm like, oh, you are failure, you aren't good at helping people, you um, you're the reason this client is now not going to be successful because you messed up in those moments. Like, it is all how I this this experience mirrors back to be how I see myself. And so I have to meet myself first with like a lot of compassion, of like one understanding. That's what I was talking about around the over-responsibility thing of like, I'm not 100% responsible for them. And it's silly of me to think that I will never mess up as a coach. It's silly for me to think that I'm always gonna get it right. It's silly for me to think that clients might not be upset with me sometimes. And I think that gives me like some peace and grounding in the moment to then be able to actually navigate it in a way that is beneficial for both my client and for me. Because what I have done in the past is when I feel like a client is slipping or you know, not on track, I go into overdrive. Like I start to try to hold, I start to try to drag them through this process, hold their hand, like way over-supportive. And one, I learned that's not that's not helpful for me, and it's not helpful for them for them because it does not serve a client to one work harder than them, but to two, like take action or coach them from your own desperation and urgency. It just doesn't, you know, and so with client stuff, that's kind of where it goes. And then in my own relationships, I think a lot of that is being able to be more honest with people in my life. Because again, I it's silly because in the past I was like, Oh, I'm so vulnerable with my friends. I wasn't really like I wasn't that vulnerable with them, I wouldn't really tell them unless they asked me what was going on. Like, it wasn't like I was gonna reach out to them and be like, I need to talk to you right now. Like, I just didn't really ever do that. Um, and so I've been trying to be better about like allowing people to support me, being honest with people, and also just being honest with them of like, hey, like I called even one of my friends like a few months ago, and I was like, hey, like I am just realizing I struggle with this. Like, I struggle with being honest with you, I struggle with telling you when I'm actually struggling with something. And that helped me to just like put that out there first and then be like, so now I'm gonna try to do this more. Um rather than just starting to dump tip on them out of nowhere, it helped me to come to them and say, I struggle with this, I need help with this, and I want to be more honest with you about my experiences and what's going on for me.

SPEAKER_00

Um I don't really think that a lot of people have the emotional maturity to do that. I can't think of us to say that. I can't really think of a single friend or relationship that would do that. I wouldn't even do that.

SPEAKER_01

It's hard. Yeah. It's hard. But I think that you I think what I had to realize was it doesn't serve me. Like it really doesn't help me to because I was feeling isolated, I was feeling very alone, I was um, I then would like to get resentful towards people because I was because I wasn't being honest with them. Like I would get a little bit resentful, and I was like, Grace, you're resentful because you're actually not being honest with them. You're resentful because you aren't asking for support when you actually need it, and also expecting people to meet me at the level that I was at, I was like, You you're not even telling them what's going on for you. So how are you expecting them to meet where you're them where you're at when you they don't even have any idea what's going on for you? Yeah, like people can't read my mind, and so I think I had to be honest with myself of like, if I'm asking people in my life to be honest with me, if I'm asking my clients to be honest with me, then I need to start walking this walk a little bit. And yeah, and again, I'm not listening I still struggle with it. I've a long, a long way to go, but I definitely am more aware of it and um yeah, trying to be more honest with people in my life of like, I don't need you to fix this, I just want to talk to you about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, I love that, yeah, yeah. I love all of it. I feel like I don't have any other questions, but that was a really good talk.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was. I loved it. I know it was just like a very I didn't have any questions, I just kind of just was like conversation, which is sometimes nice, sometimes nice to just have a conversation and see where it goes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

Final Takeaways And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_00

Well, this was so good. And how can like people like follow you or connect with you? That was yeah, you can. I don't have a big audience on my podcast, by the way, but when when I have guests on here, I really do. Uh more people will listen.

SPEAKER_01

Beautiful. Well, you guys can find me on Instagram or TikTok. They're both GK Brown. My TikTok, I think, has a zero at the end, but GK Brown, pretty easy. You can find or buy her name, Grace Brown.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yes, I uh follow you on both of them, and I'm like like one of your like fans because I think I see all your names. I'm a fan. Yes, okay, girl. Well, is there anything else you want to add?

SPEAKER_01

I don't think so. Okay, I think it's just that I want you to know you are more than your achievements. Well, I appreciate you saying that the helper in me is like she's gotta know.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I will work on just when you were saying things that like you were doing, I was like, okay, I can apply this in this way. So yeah, just like little things of like not achieving a certain amount of X or like just in anything really where there's like a number or challenge involved, yeah, not letting that ruin my day, which I do let ruin my day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, which would make sense then because again, your worth and value come from your success in achieving. So of course it hits harder in those moments because so much of how you see yourself is attached to those things. So that makes sense. And I think that the first step to changing that is recognizing it, having awareness of it, having compassion for it, because again, it's innocent. The child in you is the one that's running that. And when you have you have gotta have compassion for a little Hadley who just like thought that that's who she was and thought that that's what made her unique and special and all the things of like, oh, that's so innocent. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02

I appreciate I appreciate I'm excited to see you in Austin.

SPEAKER_00

I know, me too. Let me stop it.